Michael Herrera - Insights into UAP Encounter and Black Program Insiders

what's going on guys it's UAP gerb and thank you so much for joining me for this in-person interview with UMC vet and arow whistleblower Michael Herrera before we get into this interview there's just a couple things I want to touch on I co-hosted this interview with my good friend Joey is not my name many of you will remember him from my first video on Michael or have seen him around Reddit and Twitter as one of the first people to really start investigating Michael's claims of his experience in 2009 in Indonesia seriously when we sat down to conduct this interview we sought to really ask some of the Lesser asked questions and lesser known details of Michael's encounter in 09 and his claims of meeting a black program Insider so we do kind of expect you to be somewhat familiar with Michael's story at least know the base details of his own experience and his follow-up claims if you haven't I highly recommend checking out my original video on Michael that I did with Joey or watch his Shawn Ryan Show podcast appearance both are fantastic videos I highly recommend checking them out if you're not too familiar with with Michael story if you'll remember back to my Marines and UFOs video you'll recall this is the first time I ever covered Michael story and I was super dismissive of him super skeptical that's why after all these months of talking to Joey talking to Michael sharing meals with Michael hosting Joey and conducting this interview I'm super excited to revisit this case as it's one I've been privately investigating on my own for quite a while so without further Ado please enjoy this interview with Joey is not my name and Michael Music Herrera so you guys get to the top of the hill and of course this is when you observe this object who which part of your team first observed this it had to have been um it wasn't me it was somebody else and they were more pointing like what is that and so this was a big misconception for me at first Joey had to kind of help me visual visualized this as I'm sure it was for a lot of other people too you guys only saw the a top triangular section and some lights of this not really lights lights didn't happen until the thing actually took off but you can see I mean if you're try to think that these are two trees right and that's kind of like where you can see the top part of it but then you see the other part but you can't make out the whole size of it right because you have trees and everything distorting it so really only we saw was something changing colors off in this little thing that had visual on and you see it moving around and it's like it's not a building I mean we thought it was a building at a point but I mean it's just off in the distance right there and it's changing colors and something that you have green vegetation sticks out like a sore thumb it's easier to say if it was a building because I mean you'd expect kind of buildings to be in that area but this area didn't have any of those buildings didn't have anything like that so who made the decision to kind of go forward and check this out it wasn't me and it was the the person in charge was the one that did that as you approach the object you could only still see just above the tree line the top of the object you could see the thing so when we got down that Hill um and it was something we we weren't allowed to do obviously because you're not supposed to abandon your what whatever your post is yeah I'm curious about that can you describe the like what was going on at the LZ at the at the time where you guys decided I mean to make this decision this risky decision right to go and check out whatever this was so I don't remember much going on at dlz I just remember taking video of that helicopter that was off in the distance it wasn't like it was super close did you guys feel like that helicopter was like part of your responsibility to guard or or was it like we'd assume that there probably was other people there or probably other Marines on board that they were probably dropping off in that area that would be my assumption I don't remember thinking anything like that back then you know 14 15 years ago yeah I mean I can imagine you know whatever you guys saw well something it wasn't it was abnormal and you know yeah curiosity is is a good thing to an extent but I tell people all the time curiosity is what kills a cat and it's something in this way that it changed our lives yeah I mean it wasn't it wasn't a light decision it was a risky decision and you guys made the choice and and I mean we didn't even rack around in the chamber it's just like we weren't expecting to really get into anything like that you know was just walking down trying to see what that is and then if it wasn't nothing we're were just going to go back up the hill and resumed to what we were doing and obviously it led to what we experienced when you're walking you know you guys are at the top of the hill um the decision is made to go check this thing out and at the top of the hill you don't actually see any people you didn't see those the trucks yet you're just seeing the top of the the craft so you guys go down the moment of interception with these guys um can you describe I I think I think what gets lost on a lot of people is how fast it happened um and how quickly they took control of the situation I mean what was your first impression when you saw these guys well I heard people yelling at us that's what got my attention and when we saw weapons in their hands pointed at us you're not going to move you're not going to raise your weapon up because obviously that's the point and then obviously and during the briefing I had touched on in numerous interviews that there was a possible Seal Team that was out there trying to handle things that if they were tasked on what they were specifically doing I don't know but I remember in the wardro that that's what they were talking about having some sort of element of US Navy Seals there and for a second we thought it may have been them and we're just like oh  __  here's these guys you know they don't then obviously we were going to talk or something or and like everything would be cool and these guys were not these guys were not carrying themselves the seals and they didn't have anything identifying on them and obviously they were screaming at us telling us to put our weapons you know put our hands up in the air because we had slings on our stuff right so that's when we're putting our hands up in the air and every single one of us did the same thing it's not like I mean how are we going to raise a weapon that doesn't even have a full chamber what are you going to do at that point if you even rack that round and try to bring it up they've already got their muzzles pointed at you it's almost like a police officer coming up to your vehicle when they do a traffic stop and they feel threatened or they may have an indication that your vehicle matches the description of somebody who is had a gun pointed at them for example where they would believe that it's Reasonable Suspicion for them to deploy their firearm are you going to move suddenly and make him think you're going to reach for something and he just blast you no and how did these men approach you in a tactical column a pin pin we were we were the one that was in the Tactical column they had so if I was looking at this and we kind of started and that's when we naturally kind of spread out like walking towards them and that's when they basically had four guys on this side and they have four guys on on this side and uh I talked to numerous special operators about this type of tactic and they call it a nose bed which is where they have um basically interlocking Fields a fire with this direction on one target it's a very rookie um easy thing to do and um these guys they were they already had that position so it tells me that maybe there could have been more operators that were around that area maybe on the other side of the craft on the other side of where the trucks may have went off which I didn't see them go off anywhere um but from what I've been told there was more than just those guys there so if we would have gotten into any kind of conflict we were severely outnumbered already at what point did the craft become fully visible when we got to the bottom of the hill and we walked a little bit forward and it started to clear out M and that's when this thing was just sitting there and then they the men approached you right after you noticed it soon as we broke that threshold of getting into that clearing is where they basically had us intercepted it's not like we could run behind anything because you can't right and the trees weren't like big red oak trees where you could hide behind I remember the trees probably being as big as this water bottle at least how thick probably a little bit thicker but that's not enough to stop anything it's not enough to hide behind and not get hit you know so it's like you know everybody has the whole they think they're John Wick until they're in that situation but it's like I would like to see anybody else in that situation to see what they would have done cuz knowing what type of operators we encounter now that I've already been through all of this been briefed on it been included to an extent none of us would have been a match for those guys yeah and so what did these men do as they train the rifles on you as they approach you so we heard they were pointed they were screaming at us you could actually hear them flip everything off safe and because it's notable click and where we were at obviously there's not a lot of noise coming from the hill obviously because everything that's going on over there is basically silent because you have a hill blocking everything and then the Craft's not emitting any kind of noise except for that that little hum or that guitar amp I mean it's not exactly like a guitar amp or like a Transformer but something similar to that you actually replicated pretty good to an extent so and that wasn't as audible compared to when everything started to go on and when you know when they had us you know cuz we weren't at the at the where we just broke that threshold right they we actually pulled up a little bit more as they were telling us to and um so they had their weapons on every single one of us and there was only six of us there was eight of them which means that it's easy for them just to I mean I don't even know if their weapons are full auto and they probably could be ours are not they're only three round burst or semi-automatic and most of the time they teach us to shoot in the semi-automatic you know one round per person a kill shot at so I mean it's not a head shot I mean you have a t box and what you're trained for combat Marksmanship but these guys could have full automatic m4s I wouldn't have rolled it out you know which means that they just need to each person doing a couple round bursts three to five round bursts I mean it's going to get everybody where we were at now one thing that people bring up um is you know you did have you had your camera you at the top of the the hill you you actually got some pictures of what you guys I remember at least a couple photographs but I remember a video as well that's right I remember a video that's when I had I had a dump pouch which all of us did have a dump pouch yeah but um I had it right here all the time and that's where we basically put expended magazines because you're not going to drop them because you have to reuse them right so and it also helped too if you had um Carry extra ammo because of if you had some malfunction or sometimes we use the saws with uh cuz my had regular saw drum pouches on my stuff where I could put a drum here and a drum here and then I had grenade pouch is up here and uh most of the time I would just put magazines in whatever the easiest side to reach was and that's basically what I had so we didn't have like M4 or ar um M16 pouches I had saw drum pouches where I had all the mags in which we had a comell they had six mags they disarmed you right that was kind of their their first like once they approached you um you've described how they they were very methodical and how they they did that they wanted to gain control of the situation which they had that control right but they're going to sleep better because they took our weapons from us and slung them and and going through making sure that we had our magazines out wasn't like they were spending us like some law enforcement officer checking you tracking around your ankles anything like that they're not doing that the only thing that they searched us with was our military IDs where they knew they were at which is what my suspicion was that these guys were former military at some point cuz they knew exactly where our IDs were and you said they interacted with your IDs with something that looked what we would recognize today as a modern day smartphone yeah so they had a something that I refer to as a bat system that we were training on which is like a bi Biometrics and tracking system I it could be the acronym for it but I just remember saying bats and they tried that first so they put that away and they had these things I mean it wasn't like cuz iPhones were kind of bulky back in the day and they had blackberries and they I had a Sony Ericson mp3 phone that was pretty bulky and um they had something that was really thin and that's what they were using so it could have been something that was comparable but I'm then again I don't know so while you're getting searched the craft is in the background for anybody that hasn't heard you describe this craft can you tell us what it looks like so I remember it um as CU there was Corners M which means to me it was an octagonal shape actually could you would you mind drawing it for us let's see I got pens over here let me I like that idea that would be cool and you know what I'm going to move all right so what did this thing what did this craft look like okay so this is going from our point of view right that I can remember so like I'm just going to say this is like vegetation right and this is to represent that clearing what I remember is kind of like a pyramid uh shape at the top like this cuz I remember seeing some shading and some were kind of brighter than others like this then I remember it doing like this and then it had Corners right right this may be looking a little bit strange but this is just a rough draft used to be a better artist back in the day and I remember seeing these vents as least that's what it looks like on each of the corners like this so there's a vent here and it was like it was position on the lines like this um and then on each Corner when this thing took off it had lights that would pop on which would have been like red yellow green and blue are the only ones I remember it kind of had a line that went like this and that uh it had some sort of scale pattern that it you know I estimate is octagonal but it could be it could honestly be circular it could be square I wasn't close enough to depict it but and this is where this was the blackest darkest thing that I have ever seen in my life it's almost like light got absorbed into this and I don't know if this is just because of the craft it may help with a function but um I know there's probably third graders or something that say they can probably do a better job than this and I'd probably agree with them so now what about the platform the platform underneath was kind of like it was raised like this not off the ground but just like in an incline and then went underneath like this and it was around the same kind of uh length as a craft and it had kind of some points on it as well well which you know obviously it fits under the craft when we when we saw that happen and it wasn't like where we were at I would say this is approximately even the same distance as it was there was not like there was any lights or materials on here that I remember seeing but then you have I'm going to draw stick figures so I'm just going to draw them black CU these are black Team guys I know this is not a Fang or a uh monisa drawer but I'm just trying to gather everybody's attention to see how what I can recall as this and all these guys and we were essentially in this area kind of online four five six right we weren't like evenly spaced out but you guys can kind of see how there's six of us there's eight of them they've got good field of view we can see this going on in the background and I'm going to draw line through this but basically where the directions where the trucks came from were from our left so they're coming up and then they would go like this I don't remember I don't remember seeing them go off the platform and going somewhere else I just remember them going on here but then we're also facing a fact that we're dealing with these guys at the same time so our focus is going back and forth one you don't see anything that looks like that ever two you're not in a situation where that happens either so as um I wish there was more details that I can remember aside from that but that is what I briefly recall as far as what the craft looked like besides changing colors from a light matte gray to a dark matte black the whole thing and so before this craft took off what did this platform do so this craft kind of sunk down a little bit like this this platform itself raised up and there were trucks and other crates I don't remember seeing the trucks in they could have been because where we were at and mind you I didn't see it as it started going up I saw it when we were going back and forth and the only thing that got my attention and I'm sure got everybody else's attention I'm only speaking from my point of view was the only thing that got my attention was something was moving and because your eyes are used to attracts movement right it's just something that gets your attention so when I saw that raising up it was already what I'd estimate over our if we're only 510 to 6 F feet tall it was probably or almost 10 ft off the ground did it raise rapidly or in kind of a slow motion not super rapid it was enough to kind of be slow but still enough to where you could catch it but I don't remember seeing any kind of containers going up with it or trucks or nothing um I just remember seeing the front profile the truck with a trailer behind it and that how what I was able to see that cylinder in front of that container let's get another piece of paper and draw the trucks okay and actually I want to show you this too that drawing is going to be worth a lot of money someday keep it yeah keep that here let me do this oh get the signature cool this this is the probably my favorite part of the interview you drawing this stuff it's awesome I feel like I'm in kindergarten right now off your you recognize but it's cool cuz it like it helps you kind of uh describe like as you're as you're doing it you know um all right so all right trucks all right so what are these trucks the containers with them could you describe those yeah so um like I said only saw from certain profiles and what I remember distinctly with these I don't remember seeing like a Ford logo or nothing like a Chevy Duramax on the hood or nothing like that we obviously we're kind of far away in comparison to that so um I'm going to draw three different views or profiles which I remember seeing these trucks so the first one's going to be as if it was coming towards so there's going to be like a headlight here there's like a grill right a bumper and it had like a I remember having like kind of like a hitch is what I'm assuming and then um there's another headlight here again I'm going to apologize ahead of time that this isn't going to be I remember seeing now when you say you didn't see logos like you didn't see Ford or Chevy yeah I didn't see nothing like that stated what kind of trucks they were though yeah that's recognize the body style yeah and I I would say that they're for the F350s yeah is what I would assume they were you saying the Insignia wased out y gotcha what I do recall saying is it had like these things on the sides here um kind of like vents but they're not really vents and uh it's kind of remind me of what they had on uh military Hummers for night vision so that's kind of what they had on there which tells me that they run these at nighttime as well and these were like big aggressive off-road tires right truck bed okay you can kind of see these cases which are pelican cases on the back and what are pelican cases for anybody who doesn't know um I mean it's it's a brand but these are weapons where did we I mean cuz we had the same ones that we transport weapons with and that's just do they carry Small Arms Munitions stuff like that so then this was hooked to a trailer that had four wheels like this okay trailer and the only thing I remember seeing of this container it had The Ridges kind of like a shipping container but not much and it had the cylinder that's was kind of on the front right here so I wanted to show you this let me just throw this right in front of that so that that camera gets it what do you think of that looks identical but then again um now the other thing so I remember saying that having four or two tires on each side right dual axle yep so this was another thing I found where they actually have the conx box on top of it with more aggressive tires but this looks shockingly familiar cuz that's the that's like the type of I mean that's a shipping crate you know uh I think this is called a Trion configuration so they're all standardized like the sizes and stuff um and these were outfit they had these cylinders on the front right here that would would you know come to find out it's actually oxygen supply M yeah so draw draw those cylinders okay so I'm going to draw I'm going to Black it out completely cuz the cylinder itself was a black and that's why and initially when you saw this you hypothesized this might be humidity control for something like drug right that's what I testified to arrow with because I I didn't think it was people that wasn't in my in my thought process at the time mhm and we'll talk about arrow in a little bit but so you testified to Arrow before you did the NP PC in June of 2023 okay yep that was uh I had testified last year to Arrow um it was late April okay late April 2023 yep all right so that's kind of the view that I that's really good so and then obviously the side view so cylinder basically spanning the whole width of the container correct it was a small one the whole width correct all right so here's where the tires would be from the side profile of that trailer of course there was no white Wheels it was all black I remember seeing kind of the back okay and then this container right here this is a cylinder from a side view MH okay truck bed right here how many trucks total do you remember seeing uh four four and did each one also have weapons crates or just yes each one of them had these what you would call Pelican cases I mean but just uh weapons cases is what they definitely look like were the cases opened closed closed okay and the windows I remember being kind of dark so could you recall any other operator or people in in the in the trucks besides just the drivers I remember one truck that went on the platform and all the door at least some of the doors open I can't recall were there any people standing on the platforms or okay I don't remember um but I I don't remember seeing people on the platforms so that is kind of and these are black of course right so that's a side view of what that is right okay which I mean obviously these were black the shipping container was black everything like that the other profile I'm going to draw is going to be from the rear did each truck have a shipping container attached to it okay so here's a container right here remember seeing the bars hatch doors on the back yep like this okay can't really see the cylinder at this point but just indicate it being there Music you also said that they they were up armored what yeah I mean so what did you mean by that so they're they looked a little beefier thicker material you know what I mean like um they look like they'd be bullet resistant okay cuz they look I mean you can see a regular truck and it kind of like okay it's a regular truck but these look like they were reinforced kind of like a secret service car yeah to an extent but all right so there's a container like that which we're not elevated but this is just a put perspective of of the truck and and just so how we were seeing it from the back that's the only views that I remember seeing these trucks because you were in front of the craft and they kind of came out in a little bit C side like this and then went up that direction and it wasn't like they went straight they were going up to that platform okay so you see the craft you're basically getting weapons checked weapons stripped from this team what happens then so they're going for each of us taking our stuff they take our magazines out of our pouches and they kick them off they got one guy off in the distance that I remember was a standoff distance like more than 10 ft so obviously we tried to run and grab our stuff and he's just going to light us up if he wanted to did he have a different rifle platform to the the main guys no so same load out they all had the same stuff yeah they had the same kind of I mean they may have different attachments but I remember most of the part seeing uh aogs on each one of them with the PEC 16 illuminators on those those are what I remember seeing one thing I've always been curious about did did you notice any of them H like talking on the radio to someone guy had a radio and I don't remember him talking to anybody I just remember seeing it and with the antenna coming up that he had pressed to his vest but he was the main guy that was kind of telling people what to do yeah and he was mainly the one besides another guy that was yelling  __  at us like it will  __  kill you you know it's easy to get lost out here Etc did it seem like you know when when they intercepted you guys guys obviously there was there was there were other guys in the trucks doing their thing did it did you have the impression that like all of a sudden they were like oh  __  we need to wrap this up and get out or were they kind of just not really even caring about I don't think they were kind of caring was they may have not even saw what was going on they could have I mean I don't know that's speculation at this point yeah clearly we're we're getting into SP speculation there um but yeah I'm just it's like I also think about the fact that this you know the earthquake you know the whole reason this operation was there was because there was an earthquake on it was the end of uh or the 1 of September or end of October it was the end of September and then to I think it was September 30th if I'm not mistaken don't quote me on that yeah yeah no I think that's I think that's correct so um and then you know the Denver shows up on the 9th um so we're you know 9 10 days after the initial earthquake and you know just you know obviously speculation here but it's like it kind of seems weird that why would this operation be occurring nine days after the the earthquake um you know of course afterwards you've you've kind of been told like what that operation was all about and um you know recruiting people in in disaster strucken areas um but who's to say that was like maybe they had been conducting those same operations all week long they could have been they could have been and and believe me those are some questions I've asked some of these gentlemen that I'm working with and they you know they don't know because everything's compartmentalized I'm hoping one day maybe one of them that I come across does know because I'm going to ask him a lot of questions because I mean I mean just like anybody listening or watching to this or anybody who's wants this to come out and come forward I'm 100% with him I want this to come full circle just like anybody else I'm just as impatient the only difference that Separates Me from anybody else is the experience but also having knowledge of what's going on to an extent at least with what I've been exposed to I just have a little bit more information so you get to the point you know they're threatening you um they give you your weapons back and tell you to go you know back back up the hill don't look back when you get to the top of the hill what do you see happening at the LZ I just remember I mean because I remember once we broke the top and all of a sudden I remember seeing some of our guys just start running so I'm following suit with them right because if anything's going to happen to us it's going to get the attention of everybody else and I remember seeing some people but it wasn't like it was like close up I just remember when we ran back we had our weapons stra to our back that were very tight uncomfortably tight right because it's compressing your vest and remember having a gash on my uh right part of my neck because we had like a yolk or like a collar on our vest and I remember that when they put that through that it actually kind of the slings we had weren't the best quality and they're not um soft they're plastic and polymer whatever it is or um cloth whatever material they make out of them and it's very hard so it kind of cut you up a little bit and then I remember us getting back there and I remember seeing a couple people off in the distance as far as some villagers or whoever the civilians were and there was some other military personnel I don't remember them being Marines I don't remember what they may have been the the Indonesian military could have been there um but they were still off kind of at a at a distance compared to where we were at and there was this gunnery sergeant that was there and I've never seen this guy before I don't know if he was attached to the ship I don't know if he was brought by any other means I have never seen this guy before now gunnery sergeant you know you recognize it because you see his rank right correct now gunnery sergeant that rank is is specific to the Marines isn't it correct okay so when you when you speculate that maybe he was assigned to the ship or attached to the ship I think you kind of say what what do you mean by that like how would that they each ship if they're from my understanding again I don't know 100% but from my understanding there's some ships that have like a combat uh loading group or somebody who's basically loading Marine stuff onto a ship I don't know the specific I can't remember what it's called um they also have some marines that are red patches they have a red patch on their on their um cover and then they have red patches on some of their um I think on their blouse they have some on their their shoulder pocket and some on their cargo pockets and this guy didn't have those um that I can recall anyway he may have he may not have I don't remember but I remember that his rank because obviously it was a little hard to see it because Woodlands have black shapes and sometimes it distorts that and if you end up calling somebody by the wrong rank you get to pay for it with push-ups or get screamed at right so which honestly if I was in that position I would have screamed at people and tried to  __  with them too for getting my rank wrong so it happens but um when you um when you ran back to the LZ um you were running towards a helicopter no okay the helicopter was not there yet okay so so he had he had a radio that he was talking with okay and he was communicating with whatever the pilots or whoever it was so what happened when we got there he kind of like first of all for security why do we have our weapons slung on our back that's out of place no Marine's going to have that going on when and that's what I think he was mainly more upset with was because that we were supposed to be our weapons proper no magazines in you know which obviously they put our stuff in but they put it in to where it' be very inconvenient to try to load it up and then go deal with it so I think that thinking back to that I think that that's mainly why he was upset was because okay well you guys look  __  up is mainly what his what I would assume right I'm just speculating at that point um but I remember us stepping off to the side off in the distance a little bit and we're B basically squaring ourselves up we're taking our weapons off and off of each other giving it to us putting a magazine in and having to resume the normal carry and so this Gunnery Sergeant is standing just in the clearing where the LZ where you guys were dropped off correct was he surrounded by a platoon of Marines or was just this Gunner him other people off in the distance so they may have linked up and then he probably told him to go away or whatever he was doing I have no clue and then because he was on the radio that's when uh CH 53 came in and picked body up now on the CH 53 did you recognize the pilot was this the same helicopter that dropped you off I don't recall any of that I just remember seeing a ch-53 and that's when it landed and we just boarded up on that thing I don't remember I mean obviously our point of view I don't remember looking at a Pilot I never had a chance to and it's the same thing with this I don't know specifically who was flying or what and so nobody said to the Gunnery Sergeant what you what you guys just experienced no okay so you came to the LZ you got off the helicopter after that helicopter left you go to the top at a certain point a second helicopter comes at a different location correct drops off supplies yes was that the what that had a a cargo net thing right I took pictures and video of that coming so that helicopter is is dropping that net and um you're that's when you Crest the hill yeah you know kind of at some point there you Crest the hill to go investigate the craft yeah um you come back that helicopter is now gone that second helicop what I'm assuming is it dropped the cargo off and then it they may have landed and let people out but by the time I mean that's by the time you came back there was no helicopter that was there okay that helicopter was gone but then there was obviously the supplies that they had they had dropped off off of the distance so did you see do you remember seeing what was happening with any of that like were there people well I remember seeing people over there but and it could have been supplies I mean but they were off at a good distance and so where the where the Gunnery Sergeant was he was he near some supplies too he had if I can recall there could have been some boxes or something he was messing with that was there um there may have been boxes I don't really recall um I mean why like would he have even is there is there like a chance that like he didn't even know you guys were there and he was kind of like could have been the case what the hell is you got like where are you guys coming from what's going on it could it could have been a case I mean like I said I don't I I really don't know yeah it's speculation and but I just remember seeing a Gunnery Sergeant there who's like you guys look  __  up and you know he was yelling at us for that reason so and so from from the period of time from that period of time to when you left the LZ you were basically just doing what just like hanging around waiting for the helicopter to to show Y and we were just kind of walking around you know by ourselves of course trying to make it look like we have the like we're secure in the area okay so you kind of resume that role of of secur even though through our heads we're going like what the  __  just happened guys were you guys discussing this amongst yourselves or was everybody pretty Stone Cold we were Stone Cold like we nobody wanted to talk about this was there any point that you guys discussed it with each other when we got in town to Subic Bay I only question I had asked one of them was are you going to say anything about this or tell your wife and he goes absolutely not and that's literally it and have you encouraged these fellow Marines you were with to come forward and and tell their story too no okay um they're not happy with me for obvious reasons I don't blame them this wasn't something that you know I Tred to get one of them to help me with this to an extent and his response which everybody has seen publicly um was kind of the indicator that something did happen that something was wrong and that's for people who don't know the text that was featured in The Daily Mail article that basically says leave me out of that was when I had members of the Senate intelligence committee asking me to have some and to message one of them that I was still in contact with um seeing if he could tell anything anonymously to them which they already know who he is I've already provided everybody the names to these guys among the Pentagon Arrow they all have that do you know if they've been contacted by Senate intelligence committee or any not not that I'm aware because I'm pretty sure I would have gotten probably that or or  __  you or something yeah so you guys get P picked up by the ch-53 super stallion returned to the USS Denver correct how long what would you say the time elapsed was from the second you were in the chow hall approached by the major to returning to the ship well we didn't get approached by the major um when there was in a chow hall there was other Marines other people I don't remember specifically how that happened so who wasn't Gathering everybody up these were higher up um it could have been staff sergeants or sergeants or something that says hey you got you know you guys want to come with this or okay you know so whoever was at that point you know you're going to meet in the wardro at this time um and I don't remember the specifics of time I don't remember who told us I mean that's just it's so long ago yeah but it's just helpful to kind of and it wasn't anybody in my typical chain of command which was you know cuz obviously they were kind of more the hey you guys are needed for this and these were just Mission volunteers not hand selected like strong operatives or anything no they would just randomly put us in sticks okay that's how I remember them kind of organizing you're in this you guys are in this sck so it wasn't like it was something that was very well planned or they based off your skill set or what Chan command or whatever this was yeah so like I think we can kind of go chronologically through like your experience in Indonesia um so like the first thing I'm wondering is like what what did a typical day look like for you on the Denver on yeah like when you were when you were like on route to Indonesia like I know you were assigned to officer's Chow like what would kind of a typical day look like for you just like on the ship so typically if I can recall this accurately I mean because every day Blends together in this plus it was like 15 years ago at this point so um I mean you typically would have R everybody would get up but obviously we'd get up early because we were either helping with breakfast and having to serve up that and and at least you know which there's it's not like we were just serving food because we didn't do that we were just more I think um trying to set stuff up try to clean stuff you know so the cooks actually took actual good care of their job because they're working for the officers which is great so they want to take pride in what they do we got to eat really good because of it compared to what the other guys got to eat so that was always good so um it kind of like a full-time job like that assignment was was kind of like you would report for doing officer chow and it was like an 8 hour shift type of thing y was it and sometimes they cut you like with a break so you could either go which I went to the gym on ship or went back and then slept for a bit or whatever it is um so there's always things that you can do because when they task you to work onto that that's where you're spending your time yeah so me so how does it work with you know especially for me cuz like I don't have any you know military experience um you know you have like a chain of command that you're a part of you know a marine but I know there's you know when you're on the ship you've you've described kind of like it's like a separate chain of command or like correct because what who you're reporting to are like the Marines that are in charge of that part of the Marines that are on the ship with the logistics yeah all they basically did was say hey your number's been picked you're going to go over here while you're on ship which is great yeah because like I said we got to have fun doing it we got to eat better than everybody else you know so it was something that I enjoyed doing because I got to eat tuna all the time I got but I got all the good stuff we got T-bone steaks everybody else got the little tiny cuts and we got full T-Bones yeah so you would work um in sha with people that weren't necessarily in your immediate team or platoon just random people on the ship whose numbers were called for same Duty corre y i i mean it wasn't really a number basis they just selected whoever uh whatever um amount they needed they've all and told us to you know this is what you're going to do and typically during that I do remember deploying at least being forward deployed to uh Japan a couple weeks to I think a month before the whole main element did because they got us ready and we went on ship before everybody else did too because we're obviously working this detail so they have to kind of read read you up on things show you how to do things and then when the whole thing kicks off get on ship and everybody's just yeah you know so for weeks we were on ship with nobody else in our birthing which was cool too so they were trying to assign figure out where Marines were being assigned to if that makes sense mhm now so when you got um you know you spoke about getting briefed in the wardro that that was where you were signed so how did that exactly go down like were you like in the middle of you know working in the kitchen and then you just heard someone call out like you know hey we need some volunteers was it I think it was that I don't remember that part specifically I just remember uh the key things I I remember who briefed us which was a female major and then they were putting up pictures of Obama when he was a kid say there his family members were there so the things that really stuck out of place are kind of what I remember mostly now did you you had actually brought this up earlier did had you ever seen that woman before like was she dressed in Navy USAF she was in um she was in our Marat Woodlands okay so USMC okay and the other people who were kind of brought to volunteer with you were they in the mess all with you when the major comes in and is requesting volunteers they yes some of them not all of them but some of them and so at this time like you're immediate squad team leader the other people you're with they're doing other duties on the ship they're doing with whatever the unit's doing okay typically so that's how that works mhm now we weren't in a combat situation so that's why that it was a little bit different because it's more relaxed now if this was something that was combat oriented then they really wouldn't pull us off to do anything like this because we'd be training and doing whatever we had to do with our unit right because I know there's a lot of questions about like team leaders and so forth so when you're on an active Mission with a team leader you'd be with them like glue but on ships you're assigned to your actual duties so forth and it also kind of depends on on what details you're doing obviously so I mean it's not like that for everybody there's people yeah you have an acting team leader who's just a guy who fills that Billet he could be somebody else that's not in our instance was not in our platoon or squad or anything like that so like what kind of typical like check-in would you have to do with any Superior while on the ship or was it kind of when we would report to that they'd obviously kind of take roll call make sure everybody was there and then that's pretty much it okay it wasn't I mean because really it's not like rocket science for example so you know but it was um you also reported to Navy personnel too because they're the ones that you're typically helping and assisting they're part of the ship correct so they have more kind of what you would call a higher build at that point because it's their ship yeah that makes a lot of sense cuz that's really helpful just from someone who's not you know military that provides a lot of context um now so during the actual briefing that you were given about the the mission that you were uh about to partake on were there other people in the wardro during that briefing or was it so like there could potentially be bystanders that kind of overh or overheard you know the mission briefing essentially so anybody who was in there were um some ke leaders but there was also some other ncos there were a lot of people I didn't know so I'm thinking you know could potentially be witnesses that would have you know seen you seen the briefing and if they remember I mean I me right you know I mean I like I said I don't remember anybody else besides some of the guys but um I just remember the thing that stuck out was a female major cuz she was beautiful so like that's you know of course you're on ship you're like man see a lot of women around so um there was that and then obvious ly the whole thing with Obama you really don't see anything like that it's not something you're really briefed on most of the time so I wanted to show this to you does this look like what that word one would look like um I was trying to find a picture of like the actual Denver yeah that would that is a different ship but it's the same you know the same class yeah from what I can recall because they had a wall where the projector was hitting and that's where they were getting but that's kind of similar at least from this view I mean but then again it looks a lot like other Ward rooms that were on other ships just to get a general idea of the size like like for me thinking like cafeteria cuz a ward room is essentially a cafeteria it's just like a smaller because obviously officers correct so it's kind of a more small uh intimate kind of setting correct what else can you remember from this briefing what was the mission op operation directive what was the mission time I don't remember any of those fine details um just because one it's been a long time but two the only the only things I can recall is literally the female major briefing us and then um pictures of Obama when he was a kid his parents just stuff that really stuck out yeah and I I actually found evidence of um you know Obama he he spent a lot of time in Indonesia um when he was a child and that's all that's all public knowledge so um it's interesting that they they had included that but I mean like just overall like in general what was your understanding of like what you guys were about to go security security security yeah yeah I think it was more there was there was a delivery of supplies you're going to go to it to a remote Village um you know there there's plenty of evidence that that says that the the helic the heavy lift helicopters the Super Stallions on the Denver were specifically going to be tasked to go to remote Villages because you know roads were being blocked off by by landslides and stuff um and so you're saying security for delivering the yeah mean because what the whole point um in this isn't something that just even what that female major was saying but it's just even the fact that everybody knows that it's the second largest terrorist capital in the world and very it's a very M Muslim dominant area you know what I mean so there's people that typically aren't going to be very friendly of us and that's kind of the first concerns they were having why they did things the way they did I don't know I didn't plan it I wasn't in charge with that so there's things that even I have questions or it's like why would you do that yeah and what was the protocol after the briefing were you immediately ordered to go to a Armory Locker check out weapons and ammunition and report to the Super Stallions so um all they told us to do is basically get so they got all our stuff and um we went to the Armory to draw and they already had weapons picked for us because that was a saw Gunner yeah so we don't they didn't we're not using a saw for for this type of deal you know cuz it's not you're going not going into combat so that's how I remember because I was a saw Gunner I never really was issued an M16 I first time I when I got there I was actually issued a 203 with an m684 and that was with golf company and they said that the reason why they wanted me to do that was because I was the boot and they're looking for the people with the grenade launcher because they know it's a team leader so meaning that the enem is going to Target you so which I mean was it was cool cuz I'm like I get to carry a grenade launcher but then I like the saw because it's a belt fed automatic weapon and that I like that better and um so naturally being used to M16 it sucked because I like having a machine gun yeah full auto you know and I so you know the the whole idea of you providing security you know initially a lot of people would say like oh that's baloney like no one would have weapons on a humanitarian Mission cuz really the the the the overall operation was humanitarian relief delivering supplies and people like oh you would never have weapons but I found uh rear Admiral Richard land who who's the rear Admiral who who debriefed you after your mission on the ship um he actually did a sort of like a press conference briefing and I'll I'll just read a part of the quote here um so once the 53s came aboard on the morning of the 9th of October we put them to work first getting survey teams out to the country side to see where would be the best locations that drop the cargo that we wanted to get there and also to get people in place because when these helicopters start showing up with cargo the first concern is crowd control you know so you don't want people you know rushing the helicopters and uh another little interesting thing that kind of supports this that I found was um photographs from the 9th and the 10th of the Indonesian military um because you know there were there was also Indonesian military doing relief uh as well and there's a picture of a helicopter and a whole bunch of locals just like all over the helicopter just like mobbing it totally makes sense that uh you know there would be you know a mission like that to to provide security and not to mention we've you know at this point have found numerous photographs of uh people of of Marines doing exactly that they had rifles and were you know providing security around the helicopters right well I mean security is needed it's just common sense at that point you know as much as people would say in the military or at least in the Marine Corps common sense is not a common virtue but you still got to protect and have a barrier between everybody else because second largest terrorist capital in the world there's also desperate people who are desperate to do anything for help and uh you have that combination of things that can get pretty tricky thankfully we didn't have that but thankfully um I would have rather have experienced that compared to what we did experience right you know so now do you remember uh do you remember which day you did your mission I don't recall specifically the day that's kind of what I'm having trouble with I don't know if it was the 9th or the 10th so the ship arrived so there's a little bit of discrepancy on the exact date and I think it comes down to the time zone of like whatever press organization reported it um but like for instance right in this uh testimony from from the rear Admiral you know he says the ninth um so it seems like it was like early morning on the 9th or like late at night on the 8th um so was it like do you remember it being the very first day that the ship arrived well so I mean we never really went topside so I don't you know we're in the kitchen or in the wardro or anything like that working so I don't remember specifically where the only thing I remember is them turning the phones off cuz they had these phone banks that they have on ship and they turn it off about a couple weeks and uh cuz I was going to call my dad and be like hey we're here you know but they they didn't want that so um I don't remember specifically the day I do remember that when we were on foot that it was had to have been somewhere um in the early afternoon or probably late morning that time frame I'm not entirely sure um I can't recall that I wish I could CU then it can kind of pinpoint where things may have we can coordinate it somehow what at what point did you realize that you weren't going to have radios I wasn't a radio guy so that wasn't that wasn't my thing so like wasn't even on your radar to like think oh oh do we have radios yeah cuz I'm not used to I mean they trained us on the radios but it wasn't something that we ever really had I mean I wasn't a team leader or a squad leader at that point you know so I didn't have access to that and that wasn't a concern my concern was just what I was dealing with yeah so um I don't remember radios you know and the fact is is I don't remember seeing any anybody have radios and the thing is is it's a humanitarian Mission it's not a combat operation you know so it's not like you're stepping out expecting to get into firefights and things like that yeah just humanitarian so when you guys were gearing up for the mission you just thought whoever the designated kind of squad or team leader for this operation have something like that correct and I think there's been a lot of confusion about these points so this Mission happened during one of your designated shifts in the chow hall with a team that was not your designated team leader okay correct somebody acting as a team leader you know so which it happens you know in situations like this at least this is my experience I can't speak for everybody else but just with what I personally dealt with this is how it went for us now going back to the rifles um you know like I said at at this point i' I found so much evidence that there were definitely Marines there with rifles however there were were a lot of photographs of guys basically just providing labor you know moving boxes loading helicopter things like that and one thing that was interesting that I um learned from multiple platoon members that that I've I had reached out to and spoke spoke to um they told me that there was like this rumor that some of the first uh marines that flew in had rifles and they got like chewed out by like an Air Force Colonel and were told to like go back to the ship because it was like bad Optics and I'm curious did you ever hear that rumor I don't remember ever seeing an Air Force Colonel yeah I remember seeing an Air Force Lieutenant Colonel which everybody knows about that so but as far as an Air Force Colonel I don't I don't understand how an Air Force Colonel would have jurisdiction over that kind of operation anyway yeah he wouldn't be in a role to tell marines that they have to go back to a ship that's somebody else yeah I found that I found that Odd as well but I you know I didn't know you know not not knowing I could understand a Navy full bird captain or or a a a marine colonel for that matter he would have the authority to say something like that because what you're talking about is the money and the resources to get x amount of people from ship to shore so it's going to just it's going to cost money it's just going to not make sense at that point so you got on the helicopter you flew to tobing airport which it's not named that anymore but um you said that you never got off the helicopter at the airport it was basically just you know we landed and that's what I remember too and this is kind of what I was able to provide people because we never got off right and I can know the basically the direction of when we were flying off the ship that they can see the ocean and they can start to see the land so it kind of tells you somewhat the direction of where you're heading all I remember from the airport that we landed on was that there was blue roofs yeah that's the only thing I can indicate out of that what I'm getting at is it's it's perfectly plausible if you guys you know didn't get off the helicopters it's perfectly plausible you could have landed there and not caused any sort of stir by walking around with rifles cuz you didn't get out get off the helicopter yeah we weren't we didn't I so cuz I remember that too because we were sleeping some of us on the helicopter cuz that's what you do you know you get used to in transport everywhere we did in seven tons uh aavs helicopters all that fun stuff so you're just like I'm just getting a ride and you can fall asleep anywhere at this point so um and it's boring you know it's not like it's anything it's all just humanitarian you know we're hoping at that point that there would have been something but not in the indication of what we experienced but you know something outside of that so when we cuz what I do remember vaguely is when we landed on the airst strip and I remember seeing other helicopters basically Trail in behind us and land and then we were sitting there I don't remember the time or how long we were sitting there but I remember then us taking off do you know what kind of helicopters those were were they also 53s okay there may have been some 46s too I'm not entirely sure but I only remember um the Denver and I only remember being on a ch-53 I don't remember any kind of other helicopters that were on that deck I never really spent uh much time tops side the the only reason I bring that up is it's I'm wondering if those were the same helicopters that ended up following you guys to the LZ you know CU I know you you had said that there were other helicopters cuz there that could be plausible as far as I know the Super Stallions were only the ones that came on the Denver like there weren't any additional super I don't I don't remember you know I don't remember any of that right I I mean there's been plenty of ships that have been on where I remember seeing 46s um which are the Dual the egg beaters if you will right I remember seeing plenty of those you know but um as far as the Denver I don't really recall that could have been it could have not been you know I just don't know even if your mission happened after the point where those guys supposedly got yelled at for bringing rifles like it's it's plausible that you could have had your mission even after that point and just slip by unnoticed because you didn't get off the helicopter right you know um so the flight to the LZ described the view that you have outside uh the back of the helicopter so coming from the airport I can remember just looking at the ocean and then we were getting I remember seeing some very heavy vegetation and kind of like Hills wasn't like flat with trees or bushes or anything it was like getting thicker and and was uh I remember seeing some hills not from the hel helicopter but CU when you get off the bird they have one area where you can't go because you have this big tail rotor and you don't want to run underneath the the thing so they always say either a think is go to the right or the left I can't remember but um whatever whatever side that tail rotor is not on is where you're egressing helicopter and then basically you would form a u a 360 around the helicopter to provide that security and then you itd take off and uh then you basically would get into formation and you'd Patrol on from there um I don't really recall when I got off the helicopter or what I really saw at that point um but I do remember seeing some hills I remember seeing some thick thick vegetation I don't remember if I saw any villagers or other Personnel or people there backing up just a step like when you guys were at the hel at the uh airport did you guys were there any supplies loaded on the helicopter so this was strictly a Personnel transport and were there any other people on the helicopter that were being taken to the LZ or was it just it us and then you have the crew chief and you have you know some other crew support and then the pilots obviously so I don't re I only recall one crew chief who's just basically walking up and down watching everybody doing their job I don't remember anybody else I just remember just one guy and I don't remember seeing any kind of boxes or uh stuff that they would store in there obviously we didn't have anything on the bottom because how are you going to land at the airport when you have something underneath yeah if you like a like a cargo hook type of thing um which some of the helicopters were were transporting stuff that way so you you landed at the LZ you describe it as a hasty LZ now I've come to learn that's a that's like a technical term there's like a there's like an that that means something very specific are you using it in that way or what does that mean for someone who like doesn't is kind of like off the hip is not something very thought out it's just like okay where can we okay right there looks good right and that's maybe what they were thinking as far as the pilots are concerned I don't know but uh maybe they had it designated but it just seemed to me because we were kind of the first ones there that it'd be Hasty in my ping it but then when everything's else is set up some other marines that probably come in we're like okay this is secured it's something set up it may not be Hasty LZ at that point but the when we approached it I just remember not really seeing anybody there so it's kind of like okay well so there was no so so there weren't there wasn't anyone at the LZ when you landed guys were the I don't recall that there could have been some bystanders off to the off in the distance that maybe saw the attention or saw what was going on that decided to come up at a later Point um but yeah as far as arriving there I don't remember seeing anybody so you guys step off the ch-53 your primary objective is to provide security what do you guys do right when you step off the helicopter well we saw this opportunity to take the slope because we have visual around everything it allows us to basically within that protocol right is being in a tactical advantage of being in an elevated position is where you want to be and that's what you know I wasn't the one that made the decision the guy that was in charge of us was the one that made that decision and it ter it wasn't terribly too far in comparison but at the same point when you have visual of that and um you're also watching some other stuff happen I remember was seeing one helicopter that actually had the cargo net on the bottom that was flown in dropped it off and then it banged off to the right what I'm curious is like what was your what was your initial impression when you got off the helicopter like in comparison to your briefing like your expectations that were set by the briefing and then the reality of you getting off this helicopter and you're there first of all you you said the helicopter left right like it dropped you guys off it's gone you guys have no radio correct there's really no one around you guys are the only people there so like can you remember like was there an adjustment to your expectations of like the reality of the situation versus what you were expecting honestly I thought it was more like Hey we're not doing  __  with this yeah it's like it's just going to be boring just standing around looking at people like you know and that's why I had a video camera when I was taking pictures and video because I remember getting the one helicopter that dropped off something on video and I remember getting it and needless to say it wasn't at the point where we you know because we were condition three with our weapons it wasn't like it was chambered around or nothing we just had a magazine inserted uh safety was on the bolt was all the way forward uh weapon was on safe and the ejection port cover was closed as as it states in the condition rules right so I thought it was just oh yeah we're just going to be standing around this is just going to be kind of boring you know even trying to help out with boxes or something probably would have been more helpful in comparison because you're actually doing yeah right so you know that lines up perf like what every single person I've talked to who was on this operation you know doing different missions um on the operation described the same situation where they felt it was like boring it was like an excuse to get off the ship um you know obviously you're doing a good deed and you and you know it's it's a good experience from that perspective but it's interesting to hear that because I think a lot of people have this misconception that this was like you know because you had mentioned that oh you you know you were notified there were terrorists in the in the location that you guys were like super on alert like this was like you were ready to engage an enemy and and you know that sort of thing nothing like that were you surprised when the helicopter took off yeah okay and did you have any sort of estimated time frame when it was to return or the mission duration I I have no clue about that you guys um or or I suppose the squad leader decided that you guys should go up to the the top of the hill right and you know what it it makes sense because we were out in the open and you don't necessarily want to be out in the open if you've got no support at that end so where we were at was kind of hidden and you kind of get in the vegetation a little bit more so I can kind of understand why he would say let's go ahead and push up this direction now you you've mentioned a a second helicopter flying in you had your camera you know you you took some pictures of that helicopter coming in but did you I I almost remember you saying that it it didn't fly to the same Landing point that your helicopter did it it landed somewhere off in a distance yeah a little bit further away so that makes me wonder kind of how big was the LZ essentially like was It was kind of just like an open area it wasn't just like a an enclosed it was pretty I remember it kind of being open but that's where I remember the hills and stuff because there was like an open area with thick tall grass right and it was kind of I would assume muddy because it's a tropical terrain obviously it wasn't like we were on a dirt Road or something that was already you know cleared out to be used as Transportation so I think it was just more in a sense that there's a clear area over here and obviously there was they probably the second helicopter probably saw other people that were probably close to that area and assumed that those are the people for us we were off in the distance so whether or not he could see us at that point I don't know I assume he wouldn't be able to but cuz where we were at I mean there's trees you know yeah so you didn't see any sort of like preparation to the LZ like they didn't cut down trees Ahad of time you didn't see any tape I've seen some photographs of other lzs that you know showed like red tape kind of closing off the area yeah I don't remember any red tape or seeing that kind of stuff so right so what would you estimate the time elapse was from the second you left the chow hall to returning to the Denver had have been a couple hours okay had have been a couple hours but not like a full day not a full day it had have been a couple hours it was nothing something that could have taken place within the span of a a child Hall shift like the time you sp more than that too could have been you know because it had to be a couple hours man you know it wasn't wasn't like an all day thing okay thankfully you know what I forgot to ask is the what was the weather like at the LZ Sunny yeah yep sunny I remember I remember because it was hot mhm I mean it was hot regardless of guess if there even if there was cloud cover it still would be hot because it's tropical I don't remember really I don't remember actually looking up at the sky to see if there were clouds or if it was sunny I just remember it being hot assuming it was sunny um and so when you get back to the Denver um how does it work like you know you have your riful you have to like go back to the Armory or something we dropped everything off there gave them the magazines wasn't my magazines it was somebody else's what do you mean by that um well there was the armor that gave us those magazines that were full cuz you were saw so you had your own weapon signed yep I had my own magazines but um actually I remember if I actually had those on my vest too or if I would have left them locked up or um in a typically had those in my assault pack which I didn't bring an assault pack with me trying to think remember yeah it was somebody else's magazines as sure as hell wasn't mine cuz this was a loner M16 loner magazines from assigned to a different Soldier people compare you to like the uh like the Doan in benoit's story and I'm like that's completely different cuz benowitz didn't have this like a undeniable experience where he saw an anti he had radio communications had radio communications and he speculated that it could be ET and Dodie just egged that on correct this is totally different and this is coming from Dodie himself I asked him kind of what that whole thing was he said yeah well somebody said they heard something Paul and this is what I was told to do right said so I mean like it makes it just logically makes no sense like if you were making this up if if a disinfo agent were to come and like be like yeah I know about your your operation that you stumbled upon it's like if you made it up you would know that he's lying well exactly because how could he tell you that he knows an operation saw if it was made up like it just doesn't make any sense no and I mean I wish it was made up because then I wouldn't have to have been going through losing my  __  hair and having the you know sleepless nights and literally just it it I wouldn't be in the uncomfortable position I would be in yeah and it's not fun being in this position it really isn't that's why I tell people especially I'm not encouraging my guys to come forward and let's say if this thing blows hope and and all of a sudden everything is able to be proven true that and let's just say these insiders at some point ever do or some information comes out that's physical that literally no  __  can prove everything then maybe they would I don't know yeah but it put him in a different position but right now I mean even for myself they know that I'm uncomfortable and they kind of like well it's your  __  fault I don't blame him I mean but if I didn't see what I saw and somebody else from a different perspective was telling the story I don't know how I would react to that probably I probably wouldn't believe it I'd probably be that's the only thing is before any of this happened I was not somebody who believed in this  __  I was somebody who was like okay well this guy's out of his  __  mind or you know well you got so you're let me guess you're in Mississippi and you're fishing and you saw a  __  craft and you saw a  __  graze okay what episode xfiles are you talking about that's how I would think of it but then having my experience it's just like if I experience this okay maybe there might be some validity to what they're saying I don't know I wasn't there but I know based off of being in my shoes it's like it's hard to say somebody else is is not true or they try to point out the flaws or anything like that I know what it's like to be in somebody's shoes like like that granted I'm didn't see ETS I saw operators and I saw it was clearly man-made and it was didn't do  __  a normal helicopter or plane did I can tell you that right I mean it's like an un unmistakable experience like it's not like something you saw at a distance I was like oh that looks weird like this thing's right here y you see it it's huge we're we're close enough to hear it yeah you know that's that's kind of you saw it fly off yep I mean it's like didn't have a rotor it wasn't like a a helicopter wasn't a plane and no rotor wash on the vegetation nothing nothing like that was like it's it was like it was isolated in itself like it didn't disturb any of the environment it's the weirdest thing I've ever seen and I wanted to be a fighter pilot and I knew pretty much what kind of aircraft we had at our disposal as a as a Marine Corps and especially the Air Force only has a certain amount of planes they're using helicopter same thing there's only so many this obviously wasn't Indonesian military equipment I don't remember any of anybody coming saying hey yeah Indonesian military has something this sophisticated or Chinese or Japanese or for for that matter right you know yeah I find I find it interesting to you know you testified to arrow and like I noticed in the historical report you know they they emphasized like belief and like um you know basically trying to say you know people might believe what they saw or anything but we can't prove that they're lying and I'm like what you're describing is is an unmistakable testimony it there's no it's not like you could say like oh well maybe he believes that's what he saw but maybe it was something different there's no way it was some mean if anybody was to have seen this they would remember this for the rest of their life exactly it's so distinct because this never happens right it's stumbl I mean in in some ways people would think oh I stumble on the gold no it's really not not but in some cases of saying that yes we have this technology because there's human involvement obviously it's not like there's an ETS in there floating flying in this damn thing and there's just operators who just choose to be there I mean it's completely man-made and with the human involvement just tells me okay well man-made human involvement means it's some group has it now I know who it is to an extent and speaking of Arrow I really wanted to kind of fast forward to when you talked to him in April of 2023 what was that like well like an interrogation to an extent and so you spoke directly to Dr Sean kirpatrick right he's the only one that I can confirm that yes I talk to I know the other gentleman but what I signed um stating that I was not allowed to divulge where we met at or who was also there um but Dr Kirk Patrick was in the interview and I think he was in everybody's interview I'll have to ask other whistleblowers I personally know was sitting in there with him but he was there what was his demeanor like when you were speaking to him um not really interested everybody else was taking notes he was more interested in the fact of um because he only asked three questions and the three questions were all the same it was who were these operators MH I already stated once I don't know I'm not going to know the second time I'm not going to know the third time I know a little bit now of who what group they're a part of and what their backgrounds may be but I don't know who they directly are and if it was any of the people that I've been talking and working with I would remember who they are based off their faces and none of them are those guys when you testified to him did Dr K Kirk Patrick say he'd follow up did he say what was going to happen next we'll follow up on it you know they wanted um because I had asked them if they could get the satellite imagery of that day and they said they had access to that it's been more than a year and they have yet to have any contact me from Arrow saying that yes we have imager where can you point out cuz I mean compared to 14 15 years ago it's going to look different maybe they expanded the city there's things that vegetation have grown there's any numerous things that could have happened between at that point to now and how did you feel when the historical report volume one came out that was a a complete misprint lie of of your testimony stating you saw an extraterrestrial vehic I didn't say extraterrestrial and I didn't say they were US Special Forces none of that came out of my mouth and you got to think that that's a purposeful Omission to to to say those things because that's blatantly false correct I've stated in every single interview and even the national Press Club and even with some gentlemen that have still in touch with who was in the skiff with me he for one knows I never said anything like that because he was sitting right here when I was talking to Kirk Patrick among others so I was I was pretty upset at the fact but you can't really be upset because because you already kind of expected them to do something like this I mean that's just what they do was there I cuz I I think some of the people who testified to Arrow there was a written memorandum for record of their testimony do you know if there was any written record of what I don't remember that either I remember them taking notes and handwriting everything trying to get to but I think it was something that like the witness had would sign you know they would read over like okay yeah this is what I my testimony they would sign it for record to be like this is my testimony that I provided to Arrow I signed I signed several documents that could have been one of them I don't recall that I remember I remember siging a non-disclosure saying that I would not talk about who specifically was there besides Dr K already admitting that he was in our interviews so that's easy the other gentleman I can't and then um the location I can't talk about that that's legal binding because it's not anything illegal so I have to respect that yeah what other memorandums have you seen for the arrow because I've only seen um Eric tabers who of course is a a secondhand kind of comment there was I think there was something that was uh Foya release okay um from The Black Vault that I had recognized was was what I provided you right a direct uh it was the same exact form that you had shown me yep um so I had recognized that that was provided for me to look over before making that it wasn't like the actual one you signed but it was kind of because there were screenshots of this gentleman's cell phone that he sent me who's involved with that did you watch his interviews with Sten Green Street it'll just piss you off I don't watch any of his  __  dude because I just know it's all bull  __  lies there was a supposed to be a second piece that uh completely got moved and you know what would get people's views if they hey Sean go ahead and come on this podcast here's the Whistle blowers hey buddy how's it going I haven't seen you in a while thanks for being a  __  dick he would he would never he said he would he knows because guess what I can contradict the  __  that he's talking about and so can other people he said he wouldn't do any more media appearances after getting caught at a 2018 Skinwalker Ranch briefing he lied that he wasn't at well I Brandon actually had posted that I because he did the same thing I didn't talk to him about this I wasn't at this meeting and then Brandon just post the the picture on Twitter I remember I I I hit Brandon up at that point yeah one one thing I actually kind of find funny is is you know so na so Nathan came forward um you know he the your team leader um claims that you know you're making this all up um you know first of all it's like so he was you know he was UN vetted with with Patrick and it was framed as if he was in a position like there's no situation where Nathan would have seen the UFO because from yourest testimony he wasn't part of your squad that that was there no so he wouldn't have seen the UFO right not at all yeah so it for him to be like yeah we were on this Mission but we didn't see the UFO doesn't make sense cuz whatever Mission he did obviously he didn't see the UFO because he and I wasn't on the same one with you weren't on exactly nor was this a secret night Mission no it was not nor and it did not involve aliens let me not at all I never spoke seeing ETS guys that that's kind of why this is boring in comparison to other people's stuff you know but no it was not a night mission that would have sucked have been our night we didn't have night vision with us you know I had my kevlar and I didn't even have a rhino mount to mount anything because I always kept that off because it just getting the way during the daytime and typically I had on my kevlar I usually had um goggles that were clear lenses MH um most of the time it's just easy to pop those off and put them on just because you know I didn't like having DS because they just really  __  with my vision and just I hated it and not only that but these were ESS and they fogged up like you wouldn't believe so at least clears are easier to deal with that as opposed to the dark lenses but yeah Nathan wasn't with me yeah I mean one so like one thing that I find kind of funny like when you think about it you know if if you know he's saying you made this all up and so if that's the case it means not only did you decide to make up a story about UFOs but you decided the actual Mission I went on with Nathan I'm going to pretend that didn't happen too which makes no sense whatsoever and I mean really the the only thing um that makes Nathan's testimony have any weight whatsoever is simply the fact that you're denying that you were ever on a mission with him because you could have very easily have just said yeah I did two missions I did one with him and I had this other I didn't do two so it's like it's just like anyone with half a brain would like know that you know if if you were making this all up just say yeah I went on this real Mission with Nathan too yeah it could it could easily said something like that if that was really the case and if I wanted to lie about  __  right right but you know then obviously the Insiders wouldn't exist and you know well that's the biggest thing for me is like why would this Insider be approaching you and it's just not one guy it's multiple you know what I mean so why would they spend any time to try to help me if I was lying to anybody why would they expose themselves on their parts of it in details that I personally know they wouldn't take that chance they're already their butts already puckered up just like mine compared because obviously what they're having to deal with personally they wouldn't subject themselves to to going to somebody who's lying doesn't make any sense but so Nathan the the thing that's most compelling about Nathan is is you know know he he is who he says he is you know he was your team leader at one point yes um and he was on that operation he was on the ship all of that stuff logically lines up um and he has this photograph of two people on on a a helicopter he says one of them is you um you deny that you say correct I know who it is I'm not going to say who it is but I know who it is yeah so the thing the thing that's interesting though is someone found a match in the camouflage uh between that photo and another photo of you is it the Daily Mail photo uh yeah yeah the Daily Mail photo CU there's only two photos that I know that I've that have been released one of them was when I sent to Josh Bosworth with a Daily Mail because they're like hey do you have any pictures you want to I believe it's you helmet on holding the saw right correct so yes and um I mean but here's the thing it's a medium rag that I was wearing a lot of them are the same pattern of that way it's not like it's a fingerprint of one specific thing I mean it's it's odd that it's in the same location like I know like some of the patterns repeat and and you can find examples of this uh all over of of finding like the pattern you know on a leg here and then on a different uniform like it'll be on like the other leg or whatever right and but it's like some of the patterns don't even look identical just in my opinion you know that's just where we're at and so you don't think there's any possibility that like it was it was a picture of you on a different day no that was not me it just simply facial structure doesn't look the same as mine nothing it's not even me I mean even everybody I've showed that knows me is like that's not  __  you dude yeah I've had people text me like this guy saying that's you that's not you yeah so I mean if that's what he's got that's what he's got that's not me right what his intention with this is I don't know but there just yeah I mean you guys have a history I mean oh he doesn't like me flat out and the feeling is mutual but the thing is I move I I got with what I'm dealing with in my life and that's all I'm focused on right I'm not making money off of this stuff this doesn't get me anywhere financially right what it does provide is understanding and stuff that I wish I never learned but the truth had to be known and I'm thankful at least these insiders were able to show details and share me details as well of um of what they were personally dealing with because these guys are are working in that organization yeah so let's let's fast forward to that uh you know kind of modern day um after your your whole experience you don't talk about this for many years what what motivated you to come forward and CU because you signed an NDA that basically threatened your life and correct and all of all of us did sign that so what motivated you to come forward what was your objective well um I just think the truth should have been out I don't think that this should be secret and I don't think people should be dying and being threatened about ETS or craft or anything it just sounds ridiculous to me so my motivation was you know what somebody else out there besides the guys I was with and myself have had to have similar experiences and maybe maybe there's a chance in hell that M connects the dots for something maybe my story can help other people to an extent as crazy as it sounds and don't get me wrong I agree that it's absolutely sounds  __  nuts but they're not in my shoes and I wish some people were because it' be like you guys would just shut up you guys would stay quiet and you guys were like yeah that's not cool to talk about I don't enjoy talking about it but that was kind of my my intention was maybe that this could help paint a picture or contribute in some way shape or form yeah and I think you know there was there were whistleblower protections that had recently been been passed yes um and I I think I remember you talking about that uh kind of being part of your motivation like that now that they have a safety net to an extent making the NDA illegal you know so obviously I haven't had any ramifications of that yeah because it's not like I mean I've had harassment but you know and the harassment service is more of like okay well obviously I'm pissing the right people off right you know so if I again I've I have documentation of all the harassment that I've talked to with multiple people who know what's going on if I was making any of this up there wouldn't be this harassment there wouldn't be these insiders there wouldn't be this I wouldn't have a lake to stand on with with other facts now there are facts in my world to somebody else observing outside of my circle they may say okay in their world it may not be facts but for me in my world it is when I first connected with you um after my initial Reddit post kind of just researching the the military side of the operation and like realizing that you know everything you said to letter was accurate yes um regarding the kind of surrounding circumstances and I was like okay well what's next you know and so we you know I reached out we connected um if I'm honest I I actually grew more skeptical yep um as we started talking anybody because you all of a sudden started talking about this Insider and I'm like this is weird like what is the chances that you would have this experience and now all of a sudden someone telling you that they know what you saw and they want to meet with you so you know I didn't have anybody else that I was talking to with this I don't I don't have a lot of friends I don't care to have a lot of friends I got a lot of acquaintances I got a lot of people know who I am to an extent my world is just business and and that's what I you know I separate this from business because business is what my livelihood and my employees are that's what I care about as well as the disclosure of wanting the truth to come out so it's not like I had anybody else to say hey and then when I saw what you were doing and I saw the attention that detail and everything that you were piecing together that kind of put something in my mind to say you know what maybe this guy can help me out to an extent maybe um there's things that he could probably pinpoint or or connect the dots on and just your attention to detail was just something it's like you know what this guy's got his  __  together maybe I'm able to provide information to you that because you seem like you you're well versed in this I'm not I know what I experienced and there's other things I'm now learning um especially with your guys's help especially pointing out to me things that I can pass on other people and say yay or n ises this have any legitimacy to it so um yeah I was surprised at at the amount of trust that you kind of put into me right away because like if you had if you had like told stuff to the wrong person it could have been but I had a good chance of reading you and and kind of gauging you which is why we had a phone call that we initially had and and the biggest the the the the most crazy biggest moment for me was you know you were talking about this Insider who wanted to meet with you I was so skeptical it sounded so crazy but like I had nothing to lose it wasn't like I was this podcaster who like had to report on the story like I could back away the from the whole thing if I if it fell apart and I I felt sketchy about it but I was like you know what let's just see what happens we had a phone call the day before I recorded that without your knowledge and and I oh I was freaked out you were freaked out I was freaked the  __  out I was you know because these guys could have done anything I was going to their backyard I wanted to scream at you and like say dude don't go they're going to kill I had to I had to I had to learn the truth and that's what they were offering they weren't offering money they weren't offering anything like that they were offering a chance to set me and set the record straight of what I witnessed and I think after keeping this you know quiet for 14 plus years um I think I deserve the truth I think everybody deserves the truth because for what's going on is absolute  __  of why it's secret and why these guys feel in the right mind that they want to kidnap people or offering them uh a a way out of their situation and use them as a biological equipment in these programs is just it it doesn't sit well with me I understand why but I think if there was some kind of government intervention with this that there maybe could people that want to volunteer and maybe see what they can do and if they can that's their thing and I understand that these guys are also doing the same thing but I think they're given false promises I think they're being misled like they are because that's why they're partaking in this and they don't understand the magn magnitude of what they're doing and from my current knowledge I know that a lot of them don't know what they're getting involved with because they're heavily drugged and they can't recall what they're doing specifically with what they're making contact with yeah I wanted to ask you about this so it was during the NPC you learned that these crates weren't trafficking drugs but but people I um so I did a two-day event prior to that it was June 10th 11th and 12th was it the 12th that the NPC was on yeah I I think the Daily Mail article came out the 10th or 11th in the NPC was out the 12th because I was um I had talked to Josh Boswell with Daily Mail prior to going to DC um and Greer was the one that set all that up and my goal as much as I possibly can is having a some transparency because I think that's important and as as uncomfortable it is for me to be public I don't enjoy it but if I'm able to provide an any kind of asset to disclosure in any kind of way I'm not here for money everybody knows that I sleep good because I'm not for that cause that's I make my own money as you guys know you guys seen so um and it's even crazy that I got employees that don't know what I'm doing and I don't talk I don't talk about it freely there's some people who do and they're kind of curious they just like kind of find out on their own or yeah other people oh yeah like some people talk and like so I assume that some people don't know because nobody asks me some people have seen what I did and they're texting me man that's you know they kind of try to get in detail with it I'm like I can't tell you much man yeah you know this you know yeah just jumping back to I I just wanted to emphasize that the the biggest moment for me and and you actually at this point you're kind of like totally read into to all of the evidence that I have so like that meeting you had with The Insider was the pivotal moment for me because that conversation that you and I had prior to the day before that meeting gave me very specific starting point yes to be able to track the helicopter um I knew the location where you guys were meeting um and and it just it it set up a a way for me to verify a lot of things there was there was an important piece of evidence and so that is what led me to to verify on your own accord to verify without you even knowing correct where you went I was really surprised when you told me after the fact I was like how the  __  did you find that and I was like okay now that it's it's obvious after that point yeah and I think it was I think it was a good flip up to an extent because because it was able to at least pinpoint somebody to be able to verify because with that helicopter flight you were as well as I was able to provide other events that were going on at yeah that was the other thing cuz like prior to me revealing to you that I like tracked it on radar I was like Hey do you remember what time you took off and you told me and it was exactly what the radar said I was like holy crap and then yeah there were some kind of uh limited time kind of events that were happening on the ground that could be visible from the air yep and and you corroborated that yes um I was able to cross check that with um you know local news um and and like i' I've spoken to you about how I authenticated the evidence and and use yes you know and the only thing I can say without going into specifics is you know where I went that's all that's all we're going to talk about but and and and I know you know now because I he's provided and I've okayed that because I think some people should know I trust you guys yeah um you've been by my side for a year without finally meeting you today you know it's still crazy yes but you're um I can tell because I read people very well that's where sales comes into I can kind of gauge you know and um I I I know that you're for the truth and I know you are too and I am as well and we're all in the same shoes as far as wanting this to come forward and wanting this whole thing to stop because our way of life can improve you know the The Insider provided a lot of uh information for you to disseminate yes um and granted it was tough for me because that he you know they were in attendance and it was a group of they not pronouns attendance in the uh NPC 2023 they were there but they were also there at the the other events the one three days before uh it was two two days so it was 10th 11th and 12th okay so it was during was that on a Monday the NPC uh I let me look real quick okay so you were talking about just a couple days before the NPC that's when you first kind of met these insiders so I I didn't meet them directly um but I know that they were in attendance and um when I had presented on that Saturday I believe is when it was um Saturday and Sunday yeah I think it was Saturday and Sunday because I got in Friday afternoon or morning and then they went to the hotel I had dinner with gerer and everybody uh kind of met them actually it was a couple drinks um at the hotel and then we got our rooms got everything situated went downstairs I introduced my wife to everybody too that I've already been kind of somewhat familiar with and talking to and it was my first time in meeting some people like Michael Strat in person Dr Greer in person well no would be the second time because he was here in Boulder um that's when I first actually met him and that was in 2017 and I was um I just kind of felt that he was somebody at the time who was talking about this and there were some things that he had hinted that were may have been maybe other people have experienced what have experienced that he was talking to so I wanted to tell him hey this was my situation do you know anybody else who went through this maybe it's something I can convin and and compare notes to this person and of course they don't some of them are dead and some of them refuse to talk understandably but um yes these insiders were there so when I had did that event and it may be on YouTube I can't find it anywhere it may be on YouTube or some because I know it was recorded because Dr Greer and myself were kind of frustrated that their audio and video people were kind of slacking I had given my pece that day and I had um expressed that what I hypothesized was drugs right and that's when Dr GRE pulled me aside and showed me his phone that had a text message from this individual that had he had this encrypted app it was not signal with some other high-tech communication platform did not look like signal and I read the text message and what that text message said was and my wife was actually sitting on the couch in the in the green room and I was close to her and Dr G was standing to my right and the text message said I don't want to leave Michael hanging but I know what Michael saw and he went through this whole he wrote a Bible essentially of what it was to an extent but he had talked that he wanted to now talk to Dr gri privately and discuss what it was and um so I at that point because I was I was volunteered security for him which is what I'm doing with this to but it's more of me to kind of see what the  __  else is going on that's is how I can get information so you do you perform you help benefit somebody but you also get to kind of learn more in depth with what's kind of being going on and you get to be in the sensitive meetings and stuff and kind of really see so it's kind of my personal way to kind of disseminate information and maybe be able to understand that's just my curiosity but um I met that gentleman um which of course he didn't know that I knew who he was to an extent because G said he was going to meet with him and maybe they were going to put me in the green room and have a face- Toof face conversation which never happened and then I wake up to a text message that he sent me at 2 o'clock in the morning I don't remember what day specific I still have it because I have it all saved of course just in case I have a paper trail just in case anything happens and Music um he had said that um a gentleman's name um to an extent uh knows what I saw and would like to talk to me about it and he is the knock non official covers what that stands for in the CIA term and he gave me his phone number which is one of one of many at least that number so I I uh I was like oh  __  okay and it wasn't like it wasn't expecting it because I was like okay this guy probably he probably won't bother with me he'll just tell Dr Greer everything and and then Dr G will tell me what I dealt with and experienced but that wasn't the case so um I had I sat on it for probably about a day or two because I was like okay here's a point of no return realistically and then I was like you know what  __  it so you're you're referring to he he wanted to meet with you like what was the message he well so the message I sat on was Dr G providing me as contact information gotcha okay so that's what sat on and um so I I was just thinking every scenario in my head like oh  __  what what am I going to what is this doing am I getting set up was part of that too I mean it's a percentage sure because I'm nervous you know I've already kind of set my piece I'm nervous now the whole world knows what I disclosed and it was very uncomfortable I hate  __  being public but it's just it's something that needs to be done mhm and he had uh I called him and he did not answer and he did not have a voicemail set so then I texted him and he responded immediately and he I have it I have the text messages and basically what he said he was going to fly me out somewhere and he was going to be able to provide me documentation among other things that will help me with this but now that I came forward they these guys were working in that organization that I witnessed doing this operation he had some insight to tell me and that's what we did we met up and you had the phone call of that yeah and you have some details about where I met um this gentleman particularly and uh where he flew me off to to provide me more information now why do you feel like he wanted to meet you in person versus just talking to you on the phone do a video call that sort of thing like what was that I think it was establishing trust it's easy to talk to people over the phone getting face to face with people and having them tell you things now granted when him and I met and we were sitting across from each other and I've said this in multiple interviews but I had my phone off because he had had this one that can detect any chips and I showed you the text message or the message that he sent me talking about why they did that and um which they're all chipped so um that's all I'm going to say about that but I guess it was a chance to get the truth and I can tell when he was talking to me that he was very fidgety and very nervous CU he doesn't know who I am and I don't know who he is so him being nervous but he looked through my background he looked at every possible detail about me so he knew everything so I know that he knew that wasn't some asset planted in trying to fish people out which I know is a concern of theirs which is why they're screening people heavily and do what they do so um which I was just as nervous and that's when he during that interview or um Meetup that meeting that's when provided me a sidearm as a way to establish trust and I looked at the bullets and there were no struck primers nothing like that popped it in racked it put it on my lap like this and nobody else was armed at that point I kind of started getting to know him a little bit personally some personal details about who he is and what he does and you know other things you know he's got a family which is great because that tells me he's on the right side of things and he's loves his family very much as you should and um that kind of gave me hope that okay this guy actually is taking that in consideration which tells me everything and his body language was also what conveyed it to me too because he was very fidgety with his watch he's kind of like trying to adjust himself and it's like okay I know you're telling the truth because this is making you uncomfortable as much as it is making me and there was also sort of an apology that he gave to you can you talk about that a little bit he apologized on um saying that he sorry that we went through that that it's absolutely unnecessary and it's  __  and that shouldn't be happening to anybody and he knows of instances where they yes they have murdered people not him directly but he will never kill a patriot he will never kill innocent people but that guy will murder and kill bad guys as it should be because he's like a sheep dog and all of these guys that I'm working with are the same way they're all good people and it some people have had confusion to say oh we're held a gunpoint with these guys and all of a sudden they're welcom me in and and giving me this this knowledge and trust no it's not the same people these are the good guys very few so these guys weren't involved with the operation you witnessed in 2009 no they were not but they are aware of those types of oper yes and they've been on similar operations as that um to my understanding and so he showed you some things um you've said you went underground at talk about any of this okay um I don't I don't I'm not going to ask you what you saw what I what I want to ask you is why did he show you that in the sense of why what you could ask is what the things that he has been able to show you or Pro um it was a way of him able to prove who he said who he really was that's exactly what I was it wasn't like I can just take his word and just say okay I trust you yeah it was a way for them to say these are the real deal guys right because it's not like anybody can just see this  __  right and I hope one day I can get to a point where I can talk about that yeah and um because it it is it is mind-blowing and I thought what I witnessed on in 14 15 years ago was mind-blowing yes it is but now you actually see things face to face of what yeah you know because I'll put it this way that facility if these guys were to link up with to politicians and give them a free access card to everything it would singlehandedly blow the doors off of this whole chicanery of misinformation and all the lies and all the deceit that are being there this would prove everything because what's stopping that from happening they're doing that right now but they're trying to plan it out okay in that what way I don't know but that's what their goal is okay um I can't give any details about that being miked up and all this but um I can tell you otherwise but they're they're upset a lot of them are upset I mean I guess I I guess what I'm getting at is like what is what are what's their objective with this like with reaching out to you and and forming this partnership or relationship with you um what is their ultimate motive um because these are these are people who are firsthand participants in the program yes for 30 plus years MH yeah and so they're pro- disclosure to a certain extent pro-american pro- Freedom Pro uh life you know obviously they don't like that people are being murdered over this kind of stuff so there's kind of factions within yes that's exactly what people call the program yes and and these are kind of considered the good guys yes who want to support some level of disclosure and uh restoring oversight yes by Congress so the other reason is that these guys were somewhat tasked to try to go through us or infiltrate right I think um what would have happened is these guys would have been whistleblowers or considered whistleblowers themselves not in a public fashion like I'm doing or anybody else that's in my shoes but I think what happened was now that I came forward and what I experienced is directly related and directly involved with what they've been doing it was more of a chance for them to say okay we can lay low but now we have a spokesperson for us that can get this information out and tell and help us get information out to the right people and I was successful in able to do that but I was able I was also successful and able to get them in contact with certain other prominent people do These Guys these insiders have any fear of coming forward I personally have talked to some whistleblowers who are allegedly afraid to speak because they will lose pension they will basically they and their family will not have a way to provide yes they they will lose everything if this is not done correctly and carefully okay and uh I again I don't know if these guys are coming forward I can't specifically say that I don't know I just maybe one day they will who knows what do you think needs to happen um or you know if you can convey kind of what what these guys have said what needs to happen or change in order for more firsthand participants like them to be able to come forward like what needs to happen the tables need to flip as far as the the majority of these people in these programs are good people that's what i' I've from my own interactions with some of these people granted I'm not working with everybody right but the ones that I know very well now um they're good people they' got their heart in the right place and they got the right mindset for this what would need to happen is that the tables need to turn as far as them flipping the tables on their own programs meaning taking control of them personally getting the bad guys or neutralizing that however because what people need to understand is that this group is the enforcement arm of the even the political corruption that's going on because they have Assets in certain places in government uh local law enforcement federal law enforcement military everywhere so if they were able to single-handedly take the bad guys out or flip the script or get gain control of that because right now there's a war between the good and bad of this these factions the guy bad guys want to keep this secret and they want to keep this technology to themselves and they they want to commit crimes against humanity with this technology and have this power and control while the good guys want this to come forward and everybody benefit from it and us as a species be able to survive also the fact that they know directly what is going on because they're living in this world this is their day-to-day job so to speak so um I think now that they have an opportunity to understand that this is affecting other people besides me besides I mean it's affecting all of us because we could be we could really be far in life with this technology and not only that we could stop shooting down nhi craft because who's to say I I I don't I've never met any of them I don't know any ETS or nhi I can't never came face to face with them what I can tell you is that I know that the universe is massive and there's multi-dimensional universes or however this works with the theories of that people have proposed and if that really is the case the possibility that we can come across a species that ain't going to be too friendly with us is a possibility so you're telling and this is what the concept is so this group is going to Target them shoot them down in the deserts all over the world in secluded are and they are going to come across at a point maybe someday that they're going to shoot down the wrong type and maybe that type becomes a type that decides that hey you know what we don't need these people around we don't need this species around and they decid that we as people who don't even partake in that nonsense have to pay for it meaning that our Our Lives end as they can instantly do it if they wanted to with what I have been told and what I've understand how powerful they are if they're able to travel interdimensionally and through time and space and be able to show up here and go to any other place that they want to go and be able to control craft through Consciousness and be able to pretty much the way that they even said that um and this is just speculation of course because I've never seen this personally but the way that they are actually able to be go through things be interdimensional so can be 3D or just have the image of but they can also pass through solid objects like it's almost them their molecules or atoms splitting between all of those to separate them somehow so that's just speculation but that's what I've been told and so if you have something that advanced in some some very smart that can end our lives this whole planet if they wanted to and for some reason they choose not to but yet we keep shooting them down and not mean us as a human species right right now so so described kind of the next step forward is for the good guys to kind of flip the tables on the bad guys yes but there what about the the whole side of like legislation I mean is that still an important factor to well that allows certain things to happen to where there's involvement from both sides because there's there's laws that have to be abided by there has to be mil there has to be military involvement to an extent um and there's also has to be a law enforcement effort because essentially there's a lot of laws being broken with all of these and that's kind of the thing that maybe they can get them on of technicality to get some laws passed that that now all of a sudden these guys can't hide within that because now there's proof that there's stuff going on that the law enforcement like US Marshals for example because they have jurisdiction everywhere can be the ones to execute whatever they need to right that's just that's just technically speaking and what about like how how can we get more people like the Insiders you're working with to come forward are there you know it see there seems to be kind of a like yeah we have whistleblower protection but it's it's really not enough it's really not enough and that's exactly their concern yeah so what do they think needs to be done from that aspect these politicians need to get their  __  together and they they can't be corrupt and and like we're seeing with the whole push back of the & domain and all that kind of stuff because these aerospace companies are paying some of these guys so of course hey we'll throw you x amount of money if you play ball for us and make it to where it's hard for them to accomplish what they want because then all of a sudden the game's up these aerospace companies know what's going on they're going to pretend that they don't but they have access to this  __  and it may not even be the executives of these companies who know what's going on but the contractors and the people that are within these groups know exactly what's going on and have access to it and it's a very it's relatively a small number it's not like every single Boeing Personnel or rocked Martin or Ron or uh northr gumman for that matter would have every single person knows what's going on they don't only certain groups in that do and to touch quickly on what you were talking about about shooting down these craft are you aware of if in the program with these insiders if there's kind of an ethical tug of war going on that 100% okay and that's kind of why they they feel the need to to want to divulge information to me to spread it to you guys and to to the world for that matter the other aspect of it too is over these installations that uh Civ aircraft are being targeted as well when they're flying into these temporary uh flight restricted areas or tfrs innocent people they look for a flight when to go see some Scenic views of some of these areas that are beautiful nearby but it happen to stumble into the area just like we did at the wrong wrong point of time and now they get hit with these experimental weapon well you can't even call them experimental because they're using them they're not known you know they're they're relatively yeah are you aware of what these offensive UAP weapons are how they I can't give specifics to it a lot of them I've only been I only know of a few but as far as the other ones that are more Cutting Edge because like again they keep refining their systems because they want to make sure that there's they can just take them out with a pun a single hit and have an easier time doing it I would suppose you know that's just speculation but they're always refining their stuff they're always refining their um reverse engineer Technologies as well which is why they test these weapon systems on them so they had explained that they put them they put Craft on balloons have them go up to high altitude and then they hit them with these weapons because there's nobody aboard right and then they also have him stationary on the ground and they can hit him at different angles to make sure that it's but what they have explained to me was that they're EMP proof what they have they are and they are not vulnerable to any kind of modern ammunitions like rifle bullets or 50 cal machine gun ammo or um ammunition or rounds missiles can't penetrate through the you're talking about UAP that they have yes okay they meaning they is in these these groups if they really want that they've retrieved well that they've designed and made and they reverse engineered so like the arv reverse engineered most of the ones that are coming out and this is what some of the Insiders had said they are having a very hard time distinguishing the real craft from nhi compared to the ones that they've got that's how far they've came with this technology they can't identify one from the other it's getting to that point so it's practically been a year since like almost to like within a week since you came forward correct what's next for you and like has your motivation for coming forward uh now changed like has your objective now changed now that you've met with The Insider and kind of gotten involved in that aspect um yes it has because I feel like I can now help these guys in any way that I possibly can and I've been doing that behind the scenes and it's good it feels good to do that it feels good to be on the right side of history with this and when everything does come to a head hopefully there can be some positive movements that blow this all wide open and we can all benefit we could all be better people at the end of the day that's what I want that's my mission the other aspect is obviously being provided the information that people are being taken and used in these program s that doesn't sit well with me when I heard that I couldn't sleep for a week There's many times where I've hidden in the bathroom and literally busted down  __  cry because it's like I can't I couldn't do anything to stop that at that time which sucks to know that you're completely helpless so um I feel like it's my mission to to get the right oversight to an extent and maybe there can be things that can happen on a on a global scale that get these programs to be known programs and maybe the right ways can be done with these where people don't have to be sedated people don't have to be treated as if they're biological equipment or pink assets as they call them that they can actually have people gain a foothold and do this peacefully and make us all better people and everybody can live happily everybody can live evolved we can stop paying utilities because free energy will be a thing maybe my I mean I got fast cars but maybe I can get some faster  __  that I can drive around or fly around him for that matter however that comes about but you know I I think I think with optimism is that our world can be significantly better but we have to go through some very hard times for this to happen I don't have children but I know you do and I know that I your children do benefit from having a better world that they can grow up and experience and not have to go through the corruption and see what we're dealing with as people right now who understand what's going on and I know these insiders families also deserve the same you know like I said I don't want any money from this all I want is for this to come forward and all I want this is this world to get better and change that's my mission you know anybody who has any problems with me not accepting money tough  __  I make my own money I'm not bought and paid for like most of these people who try to keep this  __  hidden or secret or threaten them they can threaten me all they want but all it's doing is pissing us off and get us pissed off enough and we actually do something that actually because here's the here's the problem as much as I would like to say believe me everybody because what I'm saying can be verified to an extent which I choose not to because of keeping people safe in the process as you guys know but um be skeptical because there are people coming forward who should not be or they're muddying the waters to an extent and they're very known people people I don't get in drama of this  __  I don't care to I've got my direction of where I'm going and that's what I'm focused on I let other people gossip and talk well I'm just focused so that's what they can do people need to understand that yes as much as I want people to believe what I'm saying but at the end of the day disclosure is about evidence it's not about testimony it's not about what I say if I had proof so you think evidence is coming at some point very much so how it will happen I have no idea but I hope it it does and I hope it comes full force because then it's going to cut catch a lot of people with their pants down people who pretend in the government that they don't know what's going on but they fully well do because they're getting paid from it under the table right so it's going to be interesting how oh yeah you didn't know that this existed but here's some documentation or some people were saying that you were being paid for it but yet they got this material or whatever it is that they have that's actually out and people know for a fact oh  __  nhir exists guys and we've had access to this and we've been in communication to an extent for a very long time and I just got to ask two quick closing questions if you don't mind uh I think it was on the total disclosure podcast you talked about that you had been in uh contact with David grush can you comment on that I've talked to him and that's all I can say okay and two this is just kind of a personal one because I've seen this bounced around a lot I I have seen many people call you Joey and Joey your publicist you two are not the same person and Joey are you Michael's publicist not at all are you anything other than a private citizen who's investigating Michael's case just a random guy are you paid for by Michael no oh man yeah I know I can imagine that the skep it's like it's just like you know Reddit most people are just Anonymous on Reddit and I kind of and and I just remained Anonymous now you know I'm showing my face now for the first time and and just trying to crack that open a little bit yeah you know well I mean there'll be a right time where everything can be divulged and every everybody can sleep better you know but um I just saw what you were doing on Reddit and it's like you know what you're a very good person to get information out I don't know anybody else and thanks to you thanks to you you've been able to link me up with people who have true too you you're very good at networking too and that's part of the reason why I'm successful is because networking is key and that's I use the same approach with disclosure so if I'm in touch with people who are pivotal with this movement then I'm able to contribute in ways that I possibly can to to bring this forward to an extent or however far we can get and you introduced me to him you know which is great because you guys are wonderful guys very good people you know so it's good talking to you guys and just even shooting the  __  when we're not talking about this kind of stuff you know so I I can't believe we're sitting here this is just it's been a long time coming it's been a long time I'm like you know I was if I had time to go out there I'd definitely go out there and see where you know what your part of the world is like and yeah see what you do day to day and you get to exp you certainly keep busy with everything you got yeah I'm surprised I'm not completely bald yet but it's getting there but hope I got some hems I'm trying so hopefully that helps but you know if not then I'm just going to be another whistleblower that's B rocket well this was awesome I I'm you know so grateful that you sat down with us and um just yeah excited to kind of see how things unfold moving forward so well I from what I kind of understand it may be pivotal to a point where we get the the grip on the right way and it comes forward and everybody understands it doesn't have to be secret anymore